[Smurfysmurf]

Stefan showed us the scans of the Bully catalogs of 1974/5..I was wondering if anybody has any Bully catalogs with smurfs after those years?

I am working on creating my own smurf release date spreadsheet right now based on the catalogs found on here, so if those exist it would help quite a bit to see scans of them .

Andre, the poster you have from Bully (with the green background)...what year is it from?

[André]

Maureen,

it is like this.

Stefan has the "catalogues" from Bully from 1974, 75.

As I told you before Bully was founded in 1973, therefore the catalogues were like posters in the beginning. No use for a catalogue when there were so few figurines made.

I have the "catalogues" by Bully from 1976 and 1977, which also is only posters. I don´t think they ever made any catalogues back then Maureen.

So together we have all the Bully data regarding their smurfs in the beginning. But we don´t have 1978 and 1979. I have the Bully poster from 1978 but this do not include smurfs, could either be that Schleich got them back then and they worked together with selling both companies smurfs?? And maybe had a special poster for this?? But I don´t think so because in Schleich catalogue from 1979 no Bully smurfs are pictured.

Regarding Schleich my guess ( for now , could change my mind ) is that the smurfs they made in 1965 and 1966 were promos sold with Kelloggs. And they actually started making the smurfs for the stores in 1969. Therefore the gap in years between 1966 and 1969.??

[Smurfysmurf]

Andre,
can you send me detailed scans of the 1976/7 Bully posters? I know they are probably on here, but I haven't found them so I am sure they are "buried" in some threads.

I would really appreciate it

Regarding Schleich, I would even go as far as saying that the smurfs released before Bully took over might have been "promo" inserts....otherwise, I am sure there would be catalogs of those?

To me, it makes sense that Schleich didn't see any profit to be made with them, until Bully started to sell them and once Schleich realized that you can make money off smurfs, they tried to get their license back and to market them. Otherwise, it just doesn't make sense to me that they agreed to have their markings removed from their articles (removed Schleich emblem)

[André]

Andre,
can you send me detailed scans of the 1976/7 Bully posters? I know they are probably on here, but I haven't found them so I am sure they are "buried" in some threads.

I would really appreciate it

Regarding Schleich, I would even go as far as saying that the smurfs released before Bully took over might have been "promo" inserts....otherwise, I am sure there would be catalogs of those?

To me, it makes sense that Schleich didn't see any profit to be made with them, until Bully started to sell them and once Schleich realized that you can make money off smurfs, they tried to get their license back and to market them. Otherwise, it just doesn't make sense to me that they agreed to have their markings removed from their articles (removed Schleich emblem)

I will send you them Maureen. Later because my daughters birthdayparty starts in 3 hours and I have to put up ballons, vacumclean, make a new playlist in spotify with the songs they want and hide all smurfs not already hidden so they don´t play with them.

Regarding Schleich you could be right Maureen. So faar we are only guessing. Like Joaquin wrote in the Peyo book thread he translated that Bully asked Peyo what to do with the smurfmolds. So maybe Peyo owned these and Schleich just made them for Peyo??? So it could be that Peyo said OK to remove the emblem and use them. And if they were owned by Peyo and Schleich only made them for Peyo, that could be a reason why there were no Schleichposters with these. For example you don´t see the hexalotte, Dr Dinch in any catalogues. These are made by Schleich but for other persons to sell or use in other ways. So maybe Peyo was in charge over these molds and sold them in stores??

If you compare with the Kwak items this goes very well. These were made by Schleich for Quelle. Quelle sold them and we can not find these items in any Schleichcatalogue only Quelles catlogues which I have and have shown before.

I know that between mid 1965 and mid 1967 kelloggs used smurfs as promotion. Thiss goes very well with the years of the smurfs made early by Schleich. But as you said Peyo could off course have been using them for other companies promotions also later??? But they could very well have been sold in stores, like with the quelle-items Schleich made, right!!

[André]

Maureen,

think about it.

There are a lot of toycompanies that makes toys for other companies and then don´t have any own catalogues, right?? My guess is that this was how it was in the beginning with Schleich.

Schleich could very well only have been making toys for other companies in the beginning of 70s and not having any own catalogue. Therefore not said that they had to be used for promotion, they could still have been sold in stores but not by Schleich. Agreed??

[Smurfysmurf]

yes, the only thing odd about that is that Schleich already sold toys back then, didn't they (they are celebrating their 75th anniversary this year), so why would they have made smurfs and let other companies sell them?

For me it makes more sense that they gave them out with other things (like the Kellogs or at fairs) and once they discovered there is a market for them, started to sell them. Of course, this is only guess work, as I don't think there is any record of any of it, and nobody remembers it (I wasn't around back then ) but it would make sense to me...and if they gave them out or produced them for other companies to give out..yes, there would be no catalog for them, as those only show items Schleich sold.

Another thing...were the Bully smurfs only sold in Germany and it's surrounding countries? If National Garages introduced them to Great Britain in 1979, I'd imagine the Bully smurfs were never sold there (I am pretty certain they were never sold in America)

[André]

Maureen,

Schleich was founded in 1935 but started making the toyfigurines in the 50s. But I don´t think they made any catalogue for any of these figurines before the end of the 70s?? Not only for the smurfs. But therefore not all figurines made before end of the 70s had to be promotional. My guess they probably made them for other companies to sell.

But maybe someone else here has a Schleichcatalogue from before 1979?? If not I don´t think any catalogue was made with figurines. But still all figurines, not just smurfs, could have been sold in stores and also still been used for promotional things.

THe thing I want to say is that just because there are no catalogues this necessarily don´t have to be that all Schleich toy figurines made between 50s to end of 70s had to all be promotional figurines!!

But let´s hope anyone else has more information regrding this, because both alternatives, or other which we don´t know, could be correct, right??

[Smurfysmurf]

I think we are basically saying the same thing, Andre

Personally, I wouldn't consider the smurfs put into the Kellog's boxes promotional items...they were just toys, put into a box for the children to play with (they did that a lot in the 70s...I don't know if they still do).

The point I was trying to make is, that Schleich does not seem to have realized the marketing/selling value of smurfs until Bully came along and sold them commercially. As a business, it would not make sense to remove your name of a product unless you don't think there is any monetary value in it. Once Bully started selling the smurfs and proving that there actually is a market out there for them, it makes sense for Schleich to try to get the license back and to make a world-wide business out of it, as they did.

I'd even go as far as to say, that to this day, Schleich has not realized the full potentional of their smurf business (they may have seen it in the 80s though) otherwise, they would release more figures each year..and figures that are more related to the comic books. The market is out there...like I said before, when I am in Germany looking for smurfs, I am never the only one at the stand with the smurfs...(I am in the US though )

Anyway, no matter what really happened, I am thankful for the figures..no matter who made them. I still prefer Schleich's figures over those of others as they are more detail oriented...Facebook as this thing right now, where you post your favorite childhood comic/cartoon character as your profile, and I was thinking this morning, that I never really cared for the smurf comic books as a child..but I fell in love with the figures (Bully/Schleich..didn't make a difference to me back then), which is why I ended up collecting them and not the other characters which I prefered to read about (Asterix was my favorite)

[André]

Maureen,

I though I should check the catalogue from 1979. And as I suspected there are only à few other figurines except for the smurfs. There you have the reason for no catalogue. They got the rights back for the smurfs in end of 1979. Before this they only made maybe 10 different figurines and that is way to few for à catalogue, right?

So probably no catalogue before 1979.

[Smurfysmurf]

Thanks, Andre

I don't want to be anal, but they did make 22 figurines before 1979, didn't they? What I mean is that 20001-20022 were released before Bully took over . Still it wouldn't have been enough to make a catalog and looks more like a practise run

I am still going thru the Bully catalogs on here and put the numbers on my spreadsheet. I can already see why you got so fascinated with the story behind the story

[Smurfysmurf]

P.S. Don't you love it when I am stuck sick at home with the winter flu...I simply have tooo much time to think

[André]

Thanks, Andre

I don't want to be anal, but they did make 22 figurines before 1979, didn't they? What I mean is that 20001-20022 were released before Bully took over . Still it wouldn't have been enough to make a catalog and looks more like a practise run

I am still going thru the Bully catalogs on here and put the numbers on my spreadsheet. I can already see why you got so fascinated with the story behind the story

That is correct Maureen,

but they did not have the license to sell these in Germany. I mean if you don´t count the smurfs, there are just a few other figurines they sold in Germany and definatly not enough for a catalogue.

And I think Schleich made like Bully posters with these smurfs instead. Kind of a catalogue. Gerda has the one from 1978 when they started again and they also then knew that Peyo had started the lawsuit against Bully and it was just a matter of time before Peyo would give them the license for Germany also. Peyo must have given Schleich the license for other countries in 1977/78 and also probably gave Schleich back the molds he owned from Bully then( the first ones with removed emblem). Because on Gerdas 1978 Schleichposter you can see all of these old Schleichmolds and these were made by Schleich then.

[André]

Maureen,

I have to correct something.

I just noticed that there were off course probably a lot more figurines from Schleich in 1979. Just that these pages are not posted by Stefan.

I don´t have that catalogue, but a lot of pages are missing, so probably a lot more figurines are in that catalogue.

I this Stefan knows this. ??

[Smurfysmurf]

That is correct, Andre...Stefan said he only posted the smurf related pages

[smurfowen]

Hi M

''Dupuis, editor of the Smurf comics, first produced smurf figurines in 1959. The first one was a series of three figurines, 5 centimeters tall (Papa, Normal and Angry), followed in the next decade by some larger figurines. Those were only for sale in French- and Dutch-speaking countries. In 1965, Schleich, a German company, made the first truly mass-produced PVC Smurf collectible figurines (the first three being Normal Smurf, Gold Smurf and Convict Smurf (complete with black-and-white striped prisoner's outfit). In 1966, Spy Smurf, Angry Smurf, and Drummer Smurf appeared. In 1969, five more smurfs followed: Moon Smurf, Winter Smurf, Brainy Smurf, Guitar Smurf, and Papa Smurf. In the 1974, smurfs were also produced by rival German company Bully. The first of these figurines were made as a promotion for Kellogg's, but were afterwards sold separately.''

[André]

Hi pierre,

that is what we have learned so faar. But according to Joaquins translation of the book about Peyo, Kellogg had these sold with their cornflakes already before 1969. So the informations seems a bit wrong.

And if you read the Peyo-Kellogg thread Joaquin started it seems that maybe the first Schleichsmurfs were sold together with these Kelloggs( free in the boxes). Alan says in this thread that the first smurfs normal-guitar(lute) was sold like this. He told us on facebook today that he will have news for us in the BSCC forum today. Maybe it is about this??

To me it seems that Kellogg had these promotions in certain magazines from mid 1965 and a few years after. But let´s hope Alan will tell us this soon and then we don´t have to spoil any new info he has. He told us to be patient in this thread.

It will be intresting to see which smurfs was given away in with these Kellogg cornflakes boxes. But as I told in the Peyo-kelloggs-thread my guess is the Schleichsmurfs since they were the ones being made then. Certainly not the Bullysmurfs since Bully was founded in 1973. But it would be fun if it was then we have to reconcider the history again!!

[smurfowen]

Hi Andre

Thank you for that.

Its good to noted that there was actually two court cases.
One between Peyo and Bully
Second between Peyo, Bully and Schleich.

The first ruled a unfavorable outcome for Peyo, but Bully also gained nothing.


Just catching up on some reading and came across this. According to the court case (Official) between Peyo, Bully and Schleich. Held in Belgium the following was lawfully stated and noted.
The contracts between Pierre Culliford know as PEYO creater of ''The Smurfs'', the competitor of Schleich Mr. Bully ''Bullyland'' and Schlech.
The court ruled that the contract between Peyo and Bully would come to and end on the 31st December 1979, and that Peyo had no more legal ties to Bullyland. The court also ruled that Bullyland hand over all ''Smurf'' producing molds, scetches etc and all rights to selling would seize.
It was granted in the high court of Brussels (Belgium), as per Peyo himself , that Schleich will be the sole manifacturers and sellers of the PVC Smurf Figures. Pierre Culliford also stated in The same court under oath that The Smurfs were pioneered Schleich and that they had been producing Smurf Figures under the Schlich brand since 1965 and that Bully had been manifacturing since 1974.

It was also stated that since 1974 Bully only sold smurfs in West Germany, Canada and Scandinavian Countries.
Schleich had the rights to sell in the rest of the World.

The court case came about due to selling rights, Peyo wanted to go bigger and choose Schleich, Bully had the sellinf rights in certain countries and refused to let Schleich sell there. AND LIKE THEY SAY THE REST IS HISTORY.

P.S.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR ALL THE INFO YOU GIVE ANDRE AND MARUEEN>

Im Proud to be a part of this forum

[André]

That is correct Pierrre and approximatly what we already have found on website before.

But I had not heard the thing about that Bully had to hand over all molds.

My guess was that Schleich bought or got these from Bully because Bully had no use for them anymore. And Schleich and Bully made some kind of agreement. So it seems Peyo had a lot more control over the molds than we thought. Not surprising though since Peyo has the rights to the smurfs.

All this goes very well with what I have found out when checking the markings.

But there are a few things more.

For example Schleich sold all the Bullysmurfs with Bullymarkings for 4-5 years. So either this was an agreement between Schleich and Bully or this also was the courts decision??

So for me it had to be something like this.

Schleich to make the first smurfs between 1965 and 1973 and Peyo owns these molds.

Bully makes them between 1974 and 1979. Peyo give Bully the old molds that Schleich used in the beginning and Bully removes the emblem.

Peyo gives Schleich the rights to makes smurfs again in 1977 and want Bully to stop making smurfs. But Bully wins the first courtbattle in 1978 and are still allowed to make these for Germany, canada and Scandinavia. But Schleich are allowed to sell them in the rest of the world.

After the second court battle Schleich got the worldwide rights.

Regarding the markings my guess is that Schleich had to sell them with Bullymarkings for 4-5 years in the countries Germany, Canada and Scandinavia.
But were allowed to change the marking before this maybe around 1983 in other countries??? It seems they started selling the Bullymolds in US around 1982 and these were probably Schleichmarked???