[Rachel]

Hi all, this is a difficult topic as I cannot be 100% sure that I am right but I feel if I don't mention this and I am right, I am doing an injustice to the hobby. On the other hand, if I am wrong, I don't want to start a panic which could actually effect the price of genuine muster marks.

I have suspected for quite a while that there are a number of fake muster mark smurfs around. There are a number of reasons that I believe this is the case but the main reasons are:

The marks themselves often look too deep or are quite messy.

The amount of muster marks that have suddenly appeared.

A couple of conversations I have had with what I would consider "very experienced" collectors who also mentioned the two points I mention above.

Being offered almost identical "sets" of muster mark smurfs.

In the past I would have said it was very difficult to have reproduced this mark but these days, I am really not so sure and having experimented myself with just a hot needle it is amazing what can be achieved.

Last weekend I was offered a set of muster mark smurfs from an unknown person, no pics, no prices and a name I did not recognise. I asked for more details and pics but have heard nothing back. This in itself means nothing but I was just wondering if anyone else had had a similar contact lately?

I don't own a "suspect" muster mark but I have seen them in hand but could not compare to a genuine one at the time but I was first concerned about this last year.

This was a difficult topic for me as I do not want to appear to be accussing anyone's muster marks of being fake as I cannot be sure 100% that ANY of them are faked but I do think it would be a good idea for collectors to check their muster smurfs and to at least consider that these may have been faked.

Are the marks particularly deep or the lines not clean and neat? Did you buy a lot of them at the same time?

Of course nobody wants to discover that they own something that is not the genuine article that they thought they were buying and paying out good money in the process but I do believe that for the sake of future smurf collecting, if we as collectors are not sharing information and being honest with ourselves, we haven't got much hope of keeping the fakers from making lots of money out of the hobby.

Has anyone else had these thoughts? I would love to hear other opinions whether the muster marks could or couldn't be faked and possible methods or whether anyone think's their musters could be suspect. I know this is a difficult topic but one that I think is an important one to address.

[Smurfysmurf]

Thank you for brining this up, Rachel

I don't have any information that could be of any help, but I think it is important to warn collectors of at least the possiblity that there are some very questionable muster marks out there and to educate everybody to the warning signs of these....

I think it might also help if somebody can post pictures of a true muster mark so we can compare what it should look like....I know nobody wants to post a picture of a probable fake, but it might also help us in the future

[Syd Smurf]

I think it's a good idea you posted the warnin just incase Rachel. I am not very experienced with the Muster smurfs and I only own 2 of them but if you have some doubts or have heard of people suggesting there are fake muster smurfs out there then I think you have to put it up for discussion here. At the very least I think we will all become more educated about the markings and consider the markings a lot more closely in the future from here on in.....a pic of one of your genuine muster markings would be of great service Rach.

Thanks for bringing this up as I am sure we all want to know more about it

Dyar

[Rachel]

Hi guys, I am glad to hear that you are happy this subject has at least been brought up for discussion.

Sorry, I had meant to post pics originally.

The first pic is one I consider to be 100% genuine, the second one is a mark I would consider at least suspect.

Please remember though, these are still only suspected fakes at the moment.

[Tintin]

Hi Rachel

Very interesting topic you have there.
The only difference i noticed that the "old" musters are far more better painted like the new ones.
And the "new" musters are maybe just i little smaller, but that is very hard to see.
If there are fake musters?? I can't tell because i don't have inside information.
Very brave that you bring it up, because if you are right you are not making a lot of friends i am afraid.
Still an interesting topic !!

Tintin

[Ritter_Schlumpfenherz]

Hi Rachel,

thank you for bringing up a very serious (and very interesting) topic.
Since I have not got any muster at the moment and since I did not know anything about musters before joining Blue Cavern, I appreciate any news tremendously.

[Guest]

Great topic Rachel and interesting answers so far ! I dont own any muster smurf's so i would'nt know ! I agree with Tintin saying that you are a very brave person for bringing this subject into question, and i guess that is what makes you the special smurfer that you are, you are genuinely concerned about these things and you are only looking after everyone's best smurfy interests and not your own ! So well done for bringing it up, and i hope we get some positive feedback !

[Tintin]

Thanks Beers
Thats what i wanted to say but my English won't let me !!!

Tintin

[FlamingO]

I think its good that you bought this up Rachel

It occured to me a couple of months ago that they were perhaps something that could be faked after I saw one for sale that I thought looked 'quite messy' I remember having a look at some sites at the time to see other examples.

I don't have any Muster marked smurfs myself so am no great authority, or even a small part of the way there....

[eggie smurf]

Rach, It's very important you brought this topic up as well...like you say, no one wants to hear they may have an expensive fake in hand but the only way to stop this is to be educated and use the knowledge when you are considering a pricey purchase. I have seen both markings you posted pics of up close and in my hand and I have to say there is a huge difference in the quality of the marking. Anytime you hear of a lot of something rare hitting the ebay market, you need to be suspicious as well. I have one real muster and the marking is exactly the same as your first pic too. It's ashame that so many people are creating fakes to con people out of their hard earned money nowadays

[Gerda]

I have wondered this myself as you see so many pop up all of a sudden, I have a theory though on these smurfs. I don't think they are as rare as we are lead to beleive. My theory is that each factory gets so many of these smurfs sent to them.. in the old days we know smurfs where made in Hong Kong, portugal, W. germany so on. Now lets say a smurf got aproved for mass reproduction, Now the main company would have to make this "sample" so the other companies can copy from it thus makeing the muster smurf. so lets say that the company then sent X amount of muster smurfs to hong kong, germany, exc... I'm thinking there are more of these around then we think. But this is just my theory not by anymeans reality. I also agree there is a big difference in the markings on the two pictures. I would not doubt there are fakes floating around though as the fake business seems to be bigger than the real business. Sad really.

gerda

ps.. I too question my musters, I would be silly not to question them as I really don't know, and it is real easy for someone to lie.

[Guest]

Thanks Beers
Thats what i wanted to say but my English won't let me !!!

Tintin

Your English is very good Tintin

[Rachel]

Thanks for your opinions and thoughts so far guys.

Stace, I am glad to hear you have seen the two markings as well close up and agree there is a difference.

Possibly brave, possibly stupid but I have had these suspicions for a while and I really am worried about this one as it could effect quite a few collections, plus someone somewhere is having a good laugh about it.

Gerda, I like your theory about using these smurfs to send to the different factories. It doesn't quite tie in with the info that was released to the SCCI about muster marks that was mentioned in the last big discussion on musters but then neither does my theory about these being used by the painters but it is very interesting hearing your thoughts. I also agree that I don't think these are quite as rare as was thought at one point, afterall I think there was a belief a long time ago that in fact only one example of each figure beared this mark but we now know this isn't the case at all.

In a way, I think this is going to be very difficult to prove that some are faked or all are genuine unless someone comes forward to admit they made them. There will always be stories floating around to try and explain origins and there is definitely a culture of silence and "inside information" at the moment within the hobby. This is such a shame as I do get the impression that the clubs in the past thrived on sharing information as much as possible. IMHO I think the change is down to two reasons, firstly the internet, this has basically put everyone on a more even playing field. So much more infomation is available to all now and the market has been completely blown apart by online shops and auction sites so the hobby is now so much more competitive in terms of collectors often trying to buy the same items. The second reason I put the change down to is that first time around ie. pre-internet / pre restarting collections, smurfs were still basically toys. Yes they were being collected as a hobby by adults and children alike but they were being marketed as toys and so new discoveries were often being found at source ie. a retail shop, newly released. These days, smurfs are now a collectable and we are having to deal mainly with second, third, fourth etc. hand goods and it is very difficult to trace the history of a particular figure or item most of the time so we are therefore having to try and guess the past. Indeed fake smurfs have always been made but again, in the past they were being faked to be sold as toys to children, these days they are being faked to be sold as collectables to adults who are willing to spend more money on a wanted item therefore increasing the profits involved and the need to "keep quiet" becomes even more important.

If we as collectors join in "the vow of silence" as Dennis likes to call it, the fakers and dodgy dealers will win every time. The only losers are us as it will get to the point where no-one knows what is genuine or not any more, no one will be prepared to buy anything of any value which will effect the values of genuine rare figures and most importantly, it will take ALL the fun out of the hobby.

In the words of the late Suzanne, founder of the SCCI:

Sharing Is Caring.

Sorry about that, rant over.

Okay, back to the muster marks, any more opinions?

[Syd Smurf]

Hi Rach

You make very good points and I agree with Dennis's theory too. I think it's our duty to inform others about possible fakes out there and in the long run as long as you are honest and talk with concern for others then nothing should come back to bite you as you only want a positive outcome from all of this.

I do believe it's better to know the truth and be initially disappointed or feel a little silly rather than believe the lie and be made a fool of forever.

I just wish we had more info about what went on at Schleich but at least we have each other here on the forum to discuss these issues and try to come up with a unified opinion on what we think is right or the most logical possibility.

Thanks for bringing this up for discussion Rach

Dyar

[southernyacht]

Good topic Rachel

All information is useful information

Cathy x

[Rachel]

Thanks Cathy.

I do believe it's better to know the truth and be initially disappointed or feel a little silly rather than believe the lie and be made a fool of forever.

Dyar, that is a fabulous way of thinking about it, very nicely put Thank You.

I would like to stress, I do hope I am wrong and I am certainly no expert or proclaiming to be one. I am the first to admit when I have made an error and always ready to learn from my mistakes but it is only from having discussions like these that we may or may not get to the truth. I understand that this might not be a popular subject with some collectors and I do risk upsetting people and if I am wrong I apologise and we have a lot less to worry about for the future of smurf collecting but I do think having discussions like these helps us ALL learn something.

[Smurfysmurf]

Rachel, I thank you again for bringing this up and especially for posting the markings....It has helped me a lot to differeniate both ...and I am grateful that this has been brought to light...Frankly, after looking at both pictures I do admit I believe that the second picture is not a genuine mark....Of course, I have been wrong before, so this is just my opinion and not written in stone...However, I think that the muster mark is supposed to be stamped on the smurf, and the second one just is too deep to be stamped....

I hope nobody is upset when they discover they might hold a questionable muster in their hands....I know they go for a lot of money, but I bet a lot of sellers aren't aware of the problem either, so I hope nobody blames the sellers. Maybe this discussion will also help sellers to be more careful in the future ...I actually do wonder if there is a factory somewhere that makes them, kinda like the fake easter smurfs and then distributes them...just my theory though

One thing I love about this forum is that whenever there is a topic like this, we can bring it up and be educated....I have made some expensive mistakes in the past and probably will do so again in the future , but like I told some collectors before, if I have a fake in my collection, please tell me so honestly...even if I spent a fortune on it...I want to know and learn . I am not sure I remember who told me that when I got my first questionable smurf and was upset, but that person told me to put it down as a learning experience...and that I would have this fake smurf to compare my genuine one with (which I did) and to learn by it so that in the future I would be able to tell a fake from a genuine one....

[Guest]

what I do not understand....

why do Bully and Schleich the SAME Muster markings...
IMO I will pay not too much attention to this because easy to fake and the origin is no reliable

See pic example from Jan from the froum gallery..

[steveparkes]

I too have suspected this for some time Rachel, it must be easy for someone to make a stamp of the mustermark and heat it up and then impress it into the smurf (a little like branding a cow).

[Rachel]

Thank You Maureen, I agree, it is at least important to discuss serious issues as we all learn so much from it and maybe can help others in the process. Like you, I would much rather know I own something fake or even better to be told it is a fake beforehand so it can then be my decision whether to purchase it or not.

In terms of whether we will ever find out for sure if some of the muster marks have been faked, I suppose we will probably never know for sure but at least I can feel happy that I have voiced my own opinions publicly and honestly and hopefully have made at least a few collectors think about this topic a little more. It is down to every individual to make their own opinions as to whether there are fakes out there.

Please remember though, I didn't start this thread to accuse or upset anyone, purely voice my own concerns and open a debate as to other people's opinions on this topic.

PLEASE, if anyone thinks I am completely wrong or can share with us more information regarding muster makes generally or the differences in the marks I urge you to join in. I am big enough (and ugly enough) to take criticism and to be told when I have made a mistake. I am purely trying to get to the truth here and help myself and other collectors to learn more about the hobby.


Cheesy, I agree the random nature of what smurfs the muster marks can be found on is very interesting. I myself have musters on a Bully smurf and a smurf made in Portugal, both of which I regard as being genuine because they were both bought in large lots and I did not even know they were musters until they arrived. I think this is one of the major problems, a lack of real information about these marks. It does seem odd that both Bully and Schleich used the same mark but these two companies had very complicated relationships in terms of who was doing what and when from what I understand. Also the fact we still don't really know 100% what exactly these marks were used for and therefore why they were made and how many were made doesn't make it any easier to get to the truth.

Where is that damn time machine when we need it.

On an interesting side note regarding muster marks. Did anyone else know that there are a few smurfs in the Schleich book where you can just about see muster marks on them?



I will give you one to start with:

Page 14, the cushion smurf, top left corner, mark on his foot.