[Max]

Hi,
what do you think about this Bundesliga smurf?
It's a mystery if it's Herta or Muenchen 1860 one.
Some say the 1st accoding to DSK, some the 2nd.
So, let's see what's your opinion!
This is a rare smurf, I don't know why so few have been made.
In the past I've seen some fakes, even if well painted.

Max

[Tintin]

Hi Max

Hard question
In the past some collectors told me 1860 Munchen ............
They could be right because i never seen a karton box and or the club emblem.
But then, why make another version of a team that's already given out

Tintin

[Tojo]

I searched on Google & couldn't find any infos that Hertha BSC wore light blue shirts at any time but I do know that TSV 1860 München did. Therefore I'd go for 'Die Löwen' - 1860 München.

It can't be my village team as FV 1911 Okarben stopped playing about 8 years ago as they couldn't find a trainer

[bundleofkent]

I honestly do not know
The first schlumpf Bundesliga were released containing the teams from the Bundesliga season 1980/81. Then Schalke/Bayer Uerdingen/1860 munich got relegated and their places taken by the rare 3 boxes: W Bremen/Darmstadt and E Braunschweig for the 81/82 season.

There has to be a Bundesliga box to go with it to prove this....never ever seen by anyone in 30 years...

The only way to prove this is to find a box or ask Frank Oswald if the Schleich # is genuine he mentions in the katalog. I know he has seen a lot of Schleich #'s in the past.

The only outside possibility is that Herta Berlin were promoted for the 82/83 season and the other 2 teams who came up with them, had already had boxes made in the 80/81 season ...ie the only "new" box would have been Berlin.....

So, it depends on how long the Boxes were released for and if anyone can corroborate the Schleich #.

I'll ask Frank

I do not believe it is 1860 Munich though.

It is either Berlin or a local promo of sorts.....

Martin

[André]

I honestly do not know
The first schlumpf Bundesliga were released containing the teams from the Bundesliga season 1980/81. Then Schalke/Bayer Uerdingen/1860 munich got relegated and their places taken by the rare 3 boxes: W Bremen/Darmstadt and E Braunschweig for the 81/82 season.

There has to be a Bundesliga box to go with it to prove this....never ever seen by anyone in 30 years...

The only way to prove this is to find a box or ask Frank Oswald if the Schleich # is genuine he mentions in the katalog. I know he has seen a lot of Schleich #'s in the past.

The only outside possibility is that Herta Berlin were promoted for the 82/83 season and the other 2 teams who came up with them, had already had boxes made in the 80/81 season ...ie the only "new" box would have been Berlin.....

So, it depends on how long the Boxes were released for and if anyone can corroborate the Schleich #.

I'll ask Frank

I do not believe it is 1860 Munich though.

It is either Berlin or a local promo of sorts.....

Martin

Hi Martin,

you are correct about that the only new team for season 82/83 was Herta Berlin.

Schalke 04 and Herta was directly up to bundesliga 1.

And then Bayer leverkusen won against kickers Offenbach in 2 matches for the third place.

Both Schalke 04 and Leverkusen had articlenumbers since before.

So if only looking at the articlenumbers the the articlenumber for Herta could be correct??

The 3 added in 81 catalogue were also the 3 new teams in Bundesliga that season.

[André]

Would say these pictured are the correct colours??

One important thing in this case is to now the articlenumbers. The bundesliga-leiter has articelnumbers 43110. Then the first released team-number should be 43111. These were also given with team-names in 1980 booklet. So here we gooo!! These are the colours given by Schleich.

First 6:

43111 Bayern Munchen

43112 HSV

43113 Stuttgart

43114 Kaiserslautern

43115 FC Köln

43116 Bourossia Dortmund

[André]

Next 6 team-colours given by Schleich in 1980/81.

43117 Mönchengladbach

43118 Schalke 04

43119 Eintracht Frankfurt

43120 Bochum

43121 Düsseldorf

43122 Leverkusen

[André]

Last 6. But unfortunatly only the first 5 were pictured.

43123 1860 Munchen

43124 Duisburg

43125 bayer uerdingen

43126 Nürnberg

43127 Armina Bielefeld

43128 Karlsruher SC

[André]

I have no idea which colours are correct but the pictures shown could maybe help you??

[Tintin]

Hi

And what about

Braunschweich
Darmstadt
and
Werder Bremen then

The 18 you talked about are the "easy" ones to find ......... if you can talk about easy.
If there are 3 teams promoting to the Bundesliga that would suggest that the light blue one isn't a Bundesliga.

Tintin

[André]

I searched on Google & couldn't find any infos that Hertha BSC wore light blue shirts at any time but I do know that TSV 1860 München did. Therefore I'd go for 'Die Löwen' - 1860 München.

It can't be my village team as FV 1911 Okarben stopped playing about 8 years ago as they couldn't find a trainer

Hi Tojo,

I found this page with different pictures of the Hertha shirts. And it seems they played in light blue and white but the years are not matching when the smurfs were sold.



http://herthabscberlin1892.de.tl/*Manns ... 3_1984.htm

[Max]

This topic is becoming more and more interesting!
I found this pic!

[André]

Hi

And what about

Braunschweich
Darmstadt
and
Werder Bremen then

The 18 you talked about are the "easy" ones to find ......... if you can talk about easy.
If there are 3 teams promoting to the Bundesliga that would suggest that the light blue one isn't a Bundesliga.

Tintin

The 3 new teams joining bundesliga for season 1981/1982 were Braunschweig, Werder Bremen and Darmstadt. All these can be found in boxes with articlenumbers?? Also these were in Bundesliga 1 when the bundesliga smurfs were sold so they goes well with the next ones in articlenumberorder. But I have not seen any pictures from Schleich of those ones.

I would guess though that the teamcolours would match the colours used by those teams in either the season they played in bundesliga 2 or the first year in bundesliga 1??

I also assume that the teams leaving the bundesliga after the first season would be more rare. BUT on the other hand the HTF-rating on these could also depend on how popular the teams were???

The Bundesliga smurfs were sold 3 years, but it is hard to know exactly when they started and stopped because the seasons are not exactlr matching the catalogues. But logic would tell us that since they gave the first teams the articlenumbers playing in season 1980/81 and then sold for 3 years also Hertha BSC would be possible for the last year???

Off course it culd have been stopped before though??

BUT one thing is for sure. IF Hertha was made it would get the articlenumber given in the DSK 4. But I have no idea if that is the case??

Seems though that the 1860 Munchen is pictured in the Schleichcatalogue. So either they changed colours on that or only sold in the colours shown in catalogue.

And this picture of the TSV 1860 Munchen season 1980/1981 goes well with the colours given by Schleich in the catalogue??

[André]

It seems TSV 1860 Munchen played in almost the same colours in season 1979/80 also so my guess would be that the lightblue is not a 1860 Munchen. Especially with the picture shown by Schleich, how it was painted in the 1981 catalogue?? That is just my opinion though.

[André]

Another thing telling us it is unlikely that it is 1860 Munchen is that they were one of the 3 teams leaving the Bundesliga 1 already after season 1980/1981 and were never in the bundesliga 1 more during the time the bundesligasmurfs were sold.

So it is unlikely that they made 2 variations of this during the same season???

So I have to go with Martin and guess either Hertha, localteampromo or a "homemade variation"???

[André]

There is one odd thing with this smurf though, that would tell us it is not Hertha. The white collar.

It seems a bit advanced painting it like that for a smurf in massproduction like the other teams. No other bundesliga teams are painted like that. They are simply painted with stripes, shirts, socks, shorts ect. They were mainly painted to show the colours used by the teams and display them in serieplaced order??

On this one they have not just a collar, but a nicely painted one.

So it could be painted for a special customer, like a local team, promo etc. ????

[Tintin]

Hi

And what about markings.
I believe all Bundesliga have Schleich on the right arm.............
And this one ???

I am getting more and more convinsed this is not a Bundesliga smurf.
Good news and bad news...............
Seems i only need 3 Bundesliga instead of 4.............bad news...... i still want this one

Tintin

[André]

the markings is interesting.

The first marking used on the soccer had no Schleichmarking and was used pre-1980.

During that time Schleich already sold a few international soccer. Of this I am 100% sure since I bought the white and black in the late 70s and I am also pretty sure not all the others existed then because I was really into soccer and sport then and I would definatly have bought for example the yellow and blue( Sweden??) if it existed. The marking on them also goes with this. No schleich marking on these. My guess is that when they sold the soccer in 1978 during the world cup, they painted it also in the german and maybe also the dutch colours?? The smurf with those colours also comes with the early marking.

The international soccers were as also the normal ones also painted in portugal.

[André]

When the bundesliga were made they already had added the Schleich-marking. Also moved the peyo marking to the back of the shorts. Same mold though. At this time a few more international kickers were possible to get with the same markings.

Could also be that the international kickers were made during many years and can have many markings??

[André]

In around 1980/81 this new mold was made with removed W germany. This could be because these were made in Portugal. These are many times harder material. And as you seen on the Nationalbooklet from 1981 this all red soccer also were sold as late as that. I would guess this was the last markingvariation used for the international soccers??

And maybe this mold were only used in Portugal and therefore never used on the bundesliga-smurfs??