[Rachel]

Questionable catalogue items.

The idea of this thread is to discuss a few questionable items that can be found in the smurf guides. Some of these items have been touched upon before but I thought it might be a good idea to try and gather some of this information together to see what we can come up with.

I really hope this report will be ongoing, I have discovered quite a few odd things and I am sure other collectors have also so I hope info will be added as we go.

This isn't really meant to say that the catalogues are wrong but it would be good to clarify a few things.
Just to add, it might be a good idea to quote which catalogues are being referred to, maybe even page numbers.


Starting with some general info, when the two latest catalogues were released - Der Schlumpf Katalog IV & KMS Comicfiguren Preiskatalog 2002/2003 - both contained quite a few new variations. These were slightly discussed at the time but no more was really said about it. Some of these newly discovered variations are totally correct and explained eg. yellow brainy, yellow chimney sweep etc. BUT there are quite a few that had never been seen before and haven't become wildly available eg. burgandy mechanic (Der Schlumpf IV), green & black shirt torchbearers (KMS 2002/2003).

Is it just that these newly discovered smurfs were not owned by the catalogue producers in the past and therefore not shown in the guides. This would certainly explain the yellow UK variaitions, they were released in the UK and so the German collectors have only recently aquired them due to the internet and of course they can now be found quite regularly on UK Ebay. There are other variations however that suddenly appeared but have not been seen since. Could some of these "rare testversions" be purely repaints maybe even one offs that have now ended up in the guides and therefore become original figures.

Not tonight but I will soon try and go through all the catalogues I have to try and document all of the newly shown variations.

One to leave you with to think about, have a look at the baseball catcher 2.0146 in any of the Der Schlumpf guides. The lilac variation is the same smurf as the normal variation but the lilac shirt has been added later by computer. It is not quite so obvious in the latest - Der Sclumpf IV - but if you check it in either the Der Schlumpf 2000 or the Der Schlupmf 1997/98 it is very obvious. I will scan and post pics tomorrow for anyone who has not got a catalogue to hand. Is it that smurf just does not exist with a lilac or purple shirt or that no-one with any connection to the guide owns one?

Thank You Sven of reminding me of this the other day, you have go me looking into all of this again.

To be continued..............

[attombomb7]

HI

this sounds like it will be a fun dig!! and I can See Dyar with his love for variations getting into this thread!

I guess the question is to figure out what is real and what is fake?
and I assume there are also factory paint errors and factory fakes?

[IndigoSmurf]

Hi Rachel!

Very interesting post

It would be great to know the truth about some of these smurfs. I've always questioned the lilac catcher. I see him once in a while on ebay.de but each time it was by known repainters.

Christine

[Syd Smurf]

Do we all agree that the "I Love NY" smurf was never an original release? I have no proof of this but I get the feeling that the origins of this one is very sketchy.

Slightly off topic is many of the testversions in the super smurfs (Der Schlumpf Katalog IV) have been now found out to be Alfred J Kwak items (as mentioned on MV last year) such as 40234 Smurfette Vanity Table (white furniture), 40238 Smurfette Kitchen (green stove), 40240 Smurf in Bed (all white bed & mattress) and also there would have to be doubts over 40228 Papa in Rocking Chair (white cushion & lilac cushion versions). These were all listed as testversions. Other Kwak items that are the same as smurf items are the River Raft & Hammock which I both have but could be the same as the smurfs ones pending further study.

Other areas that are doubtful are the rohlings. The katalog only mentions some of them but there seems to be a whole heap out there that seem to be authentic smurfs while others are fakes that look very close to the original ones but usually shorter....again this might be off the topic you are trying to follow Rach so I apologise for that.

Just looking through Der Schlumpf Katalog IV there are some that I have never seen unless they have been faked such as:

Sunbather with the orange & white pants
are all of the Flower smurfs (20019) authentic?
Gymnast (all white pants & shirt)
Sleepwalker (orange pom pom)
some of the Torchbearers as mentioned by Rachel
Painter (20045) red tip paintbrush (I have fakes of these Comics Non Toxicos)
Trumpeter (red pants) (thanks to Stace I have one of these but were they ever officially released?)
Tennis Player (black shirt)
Football/Soccer Player 2 (different coloured tops)
Courting (20076) (red flower)
Traveller (mentions yellow & green sticks which has been discussed here as coming from other Schleich characters)
Artist (20089) blue tip paintbrush
Papa Conductor (20092) yellow Jacket
Sledgehammer (yellow hammer)
Cake (yellow cake, red plate)
Carpenter (20112) brown board (again I have a fake version of this Toxico)
French Fries (paper bag red)
Surfer (red surf board)
Gardener with Rake (20138) different coloured rakes
Secretary (testversion with green pencil tip)
Baseball Catcher (purple shirt) as mentioned by Rach
Valentine Smurfette (pink dress)
Apple (all red, dark green testversions)
Smurfette Jumprope (blue rope) in the Katalog it called a Spanish version
Majorette (light blue & beige testversions)...don't get Karen started...lol
Baby with Blocks (pastel colours)
Surprise Cones (will the unpainted cones feature in the next one?)
Table Tennis (wine red & blue shirt versions)
Snappy (orange shirt)
Johan (green shirt version) should have one arriving this week or next

I am not saying all of these are fakes as I haven't been around long enough to say that but I did just want to bring these ones up for discussion. Maybe I am writing these in the wrong thread and if so can you move it for me Rach to where it may be better suited as I do not want to muck up your post.

Thanks

Dyar

[pekkelien]

i know a rugby player that isnt in any catalogue and its real

[pekkelien]

heres a pic

[Rachel]

Hi guys so far so good. Excellent info Dyar, many of the smurfs you mention are ones that I was intending to look into.

I think one of the main reasons we find ourselves in this position is because Schleich and Bully were so poor at keeping records of what they actually produced and from what I gather, during the 90's (I think) Schleich had a lot of financial problems and any paperwork that did exist was destroyed. Plus, we have to remember that smurfs were never really produced as a collectable, only as a toy and so variations of paint colour or mold type were fairly irrelevant.

I totally agree with you about the I Love NY smurf, I really doubt whether this was officially produced. You would expect to find the odd one still around New York and I gather that many smurf collectors (Pete included) have hunted high and low and never seen one. My guess is that maybe a few of these were produced by an indvidual who thought it was a good idea to use the red apple from the No 1 Teacher smurf. Then a collector gets hold of one and shows his friends, of course they are unaware that it is homemade, the next thing you know other people are making them for themselves as they can't get one anywhere. If anyone has any information regarding the I Love NY apple smurf, Pleeeeease let us know.


Sven, I have to ask, why do you think that this rugby is an original? Why would it be green skin and a local club colour? If I am wrong, I apologise but I just can't imagine this smurf being released like this officially.

Okay, here are the scans of the baseball catchers to show that the purple has been added by computer later on. You can see the lastest catalogue has been done slightly better but the first two catalogues are fairly poorly done. As I said before, I have never seen one of these sell in the USA (which is where you would expect to find them as they were released there) and like Christine, I have only ever seen dubious looking ones in Germany.

Der Schlumpf 2000


Der Schlumpf 1998


Der Schlumpf 2000


Der Schlumpf 2003

[pekkelien]

i saw the rugby 5 times 3 times on the uk ebay and 1 time on germany
and the green is the raw piece off the smurf
i dont think they can fake a smurf like that
so how come i saw 5 different same colourd green raw smurfs
im pretty sure its real maybe simon saw him before or owns whone

[Rachel]

Hi Sven, I remember seeing it once on Ebay UK but I can't remember the seller. Did you buy it?
I can remember thinking at the time - no way. Sorry.

You mention it is raw green, are you saying it is a green material base?

[attombomb7]

its very obvious Rachel from those baseball catcher smurf photos that they used photo shop to add the pink! poorly too! they need lessons!

[Rachel]

Next one that sticks out like a sore thumb is the torchbearer.
The green and black variations do not appear in any guides before the latest editions. Okay, that certainly does not prove anything but there seems to be some confusion with the colours between the different catalogues.

The Der Schlumpf Katalog IV shows green vest / white shorts as a keyring and white vest with green shorts and white vest with black shorts as variations BUT the KMS 2003 Preiskatalog shows green vest / white shorts and black vest / white shorts, the opposite way around.

Also we have to remember that these would be very easy to repaint if you had the all white variations to begin with.

Any thoughts.

Der Schlumpf Katalog IV


KMS Preiskatalog 2002/2003

[hugofilia]

Regarding " I LOVE N.Y. " smurf, i will tell a little story:
4-5 years ago i sent one ( the same one but not at the same time of course) to 4 differents well known dealers in Europe and USA . I will NOT say who they were( why embarassed nice guys that were trying to help)
Result:
2 said faked
1 said look real
1 could not tell
I did not knew much at the time and i figure i was lucky. I say now ALL faked.
No one can trace back how it all started, Peyo or Schleich are no use most of the time.
That smurf was bought at an antique show in Connecticut years ago ( northern state of NY) I do not have this guy anymore.
The green Rugby can me made too.
When honesty is involved , all these faked smurfs are enjoyable if you know they are, BEFORE you buy them.
I could go on and on with repainted smurfs but maybe i make myself more vulnerable than i should.
John

[attombomb7]

that was a very good explantation JOhn!

[pekkelien]

Next one that sticks out like a sore thumb is the torchbearer.
The green and black variations do not appear in any guides before the latest editions. Okay, that certainly does not prove anything but there seems to be some confusion with the colours between the different catalogues.

The Der Schlumpf Katalog IV shows green vest / white shorts as a keyring and white vest with green shorts and white vest with black shorts as variations BUT the KMS 2003 Preiskatalog shows green vest / white shorts and black vest / white shorts, the opposite way around.

Also we have to remember that these would be very easy to repaint if you had the all white variations to begin with.

Any thoughts.

no i didnt bought him last time on germany he went 15 euro orso i should off bought him i know
but yes the green is the base off the smurf its green rohling and isnt painted blue

[Syd Smurf]

Can I just point out that we don't mean this to be an attack on the authors of the catalogues...far from it actually. If it wasn't for these guys then we wouldn't know about all of these and we would be left totally in the dark when it comes to the variations. We may pull the catalogues apart and discuss certain things but if it wasn't for them we wouldn't have a place to start discussing these. I love the catalogues and I have learnt so much from them. If they didn't exist I wouldn't know half of the things I do.

I know the authors did these to help people like us and I am sure we have all benefitted in some way from all of their work. I look forward to the next editions like I do to my next smurf package....just thought I would say that incase anyone had the wrong idea of what we are saying here.

Cheers

Dyar

[Rachel]

Absoulutely Dyar, this thread is purely to try and clear up some confusions, not lay blame anywhere. Thank goodness for the guides, could you imagine trying to keep track of anything without them.

John, nice info about your I Love NY smurf, oh how I would like to know the truth about this one.

Hi Sven, sorry, I am still not 100% convinced. Do you have a green raw rugby player or could you show me one? Please don't get me wrong, I am not arguing with your smurfy knowledge but as I have never seen a green raw rugby and to me the sensible explanation for this smurf is that somebody decided to paint a smurf with their local rugby club but because the colours were blue and white they painted the smurf green.
Also, I don't understand how the raw smurf colour is green when I can see white on a rub on the foot and blue on his hands.

Anyone help us out here?

[attombomb7]

I agree on the Katalogs being wonderful! but as anything..they need to be updated..this hobby is no longer a small hobby...

and its serious money here! and if these prices are to reflect what I or anyone has to now pay...they should become more accurate ..

there are so many items listed as rare that are common..for example..

I do think that collectors and guides are fantastic resources...and appreciate those who spend hours and years making these..

for all of us as well.. '

I somehow feel a new katalog is in the works...here or somewhere that will finally cover not just PVC items but ALL items ..fake or real

remember most collectors have spent tons of $$$ on this..even the makers of the katalogs...who katalog mostly their own collections to give them a nice value!....

collecting has always been this way..it grows

okl I'll shut up!!

[pekkelien]

i think transparent rohglings are fakes i never seen whone before but this is a smurf that can be faked
i see a lot off new pvc it looks like there are some people in germany who remake smurfs and the pvc they are holding are are making them in all different colours
and in holland you see old faked smurfs turning up remade
and also in holland a lot off smurfs that get a new colour
blue majorette green schleich!! johan adn yellow sledge hammer
rohling candys ( even whites)
im positive the ownly original green johan would be a bully
bully has made some smurfs in different colours like the football smurf
you see him in the cataloque in all different colours and every years you see new additions like the ice hockeys
but i got 2 times a 100% real lila bully footballer
i also have my doubts about papa smurf as yellow teatcher also bully

[XoioX2000]

Hi Guys,

This is a very interesting thread: I agree with everything Rachel & Dyar have said so far. And you are right Dyar: without the "Katalog" we would not be having this discussion and we would know very little about what is really outhere. I have to admit, having received a lovely parcel from Karen with Katalog IV in it (and the 2005 set! Ah! I love them!) I have only had it for a couple of days...

But in that little time I have noticed some very odd things as well and I am so glad youhave started this thread!!!!

Here are a few that really sticked out like a sore thumb (in my view)

- On page 37, the digger 20043. Version 7
I remember that smurf being sold on eBay a couple of times and the seller making it very clear that he had painted it that way and varnished it. For a few off!

- On page 67, the school one 20103. Version 2. That red school bag look just as bad as I had painted my self!

There seems to be a lot more Smurfs with blue pants. But more often than never the blue looks very shiny and poorly applied.

More generally: there are too many "new" variations where the paint looks too shiny with various degrees of how well it has been made...

In my view the quanity of new rugby smurfs are definetly in that category as well as the ice hockey ones.

But the ones that strikes the most is on Page 116... the raw McDonald... It looks like it has been sprayed or dipped in blue!!!!

On a more serious note: if you look at the price of that last one: 100 EUR
Ok we are not here to blame the authors, however when such a high value is put on such an item, it opens the door wide open for some people to take advantage of the situation. I think the pricing of these variations carry some responsability because, we as collectors, will refer to that book, often as a bible to get an idea about how much we are ready to pay for a particular smurf.

It would be better if they'd put a question mark.

That's my grumble for today...

Cheers,

David

[Syd Smurf]

Hi David

That was a decent rant but it all made perfect sense to me. I do think that these prices are higher than what they should be in many cases and mainly because they are due to the authors being dealers at the same time. Where I find the prices really handy is when you compare them to another variation of a particular smurf so you can see what markings are more valuable than others.

Even if the pics in the katalog are not authentic it at least shows us what they are meant to be like and if the colour is not quite right then it may be harder for fakers to duplicate them.

I don't think these catalogues are perfect but I think they are better than the alternative and I think they will get better and better with each edition. So in this way I find it hard to be too critical of the guides as it turned me into a collector with no idea to a collector who could fake it

I am looking forward to the next guide though and I am sure we can have some more interesting threads when they come out.

I still recommend these to anyone who hasn't got one and hopefully we will have an English version soon as well as I think they will be really popular.

I do think we have a good amount of knowledge at this site now so it's great discussing these types of things and hopefully we all learn something new out of it.

Dyar